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Rules discussion; phases

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1 Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:47 am

Chinese R-3 wrote:Proposed phases:

Main phase - 23 or so hours
During this time, everyone makes their claims, rolls their dice, declares their armies, announces what they're building, and writes fluff. The game board does not change during this time.
Players must specify if they are rolling as an 'ally' dice - which does not give them the chance to loot territory next turn, or 'taking over' dice - which doubles the cost of taking unclaimed lands this turn. They must also specify which war each army is fighting in, if there is more than 1 war going on at the time.

Resolution phase - 1 hour or so, from Midnight new york time to 1am new york time
Phase 1 of resolution - looty phase
Players lose gold from their coffers, and gain possession of lands they made claims on, for wars they won on the previous turn. This is done in posting order. If a land cannot be claimed, due to running out of gold, or it already being taken by someone, then that land does not change owners, and gold is not deducted.

Phase 2 of resolution - jewy phase
Players earn 1g for every non-resource land under their possession, 2g for every Gold land, and an extra 1g if they still control their capitol. This is added to their total gold.

Phase 3 of resolution - transfer phase
Players lose gold, or gain gold, if they agreed to transfer funds between each-other.
Players lose total armies, or gain total armies, if they agreed to transfer armies.
Players lose access to a resource, or gain access to a resource, if they agreed to transfer it.
If a transfer is not possible, due to not having the gold to transfer, not having the resource to transfer, or not having the armies to transfer, then the transfer is entirely aborted, and no transfer takes place.

Phase 4 of resolution - supply phase
Players lose 1g for every army under their control. If their gold is made negative by this action, the player gains 1g, and loses 1 army, until their gold is set to 0. For every different resource a player has under their control, their army gains a +0.1* modifier to all of its rolls.

Phase 5 of resolution - grabby phase
Players lose gold, and gain ownership of an unoccupied territory they made claims for. This is done in posting order. If a land cannot be claimed, due to running out of gold, or it already being taken by someone, then that land does not change owners, and the gold is not deducted.
If a player was attacked in an attempt to be taken over, or attacked someone in an attempt to take them over on this turn, the gold lost by these actions is doubled.

Phase 6 of resolution - war phase
All players have their dice added (up to their current total number of armies), and the result is multiplied by a player's resource bonus, if they have any. The resulting values are summed for each nation engaged in a side of a conflict, and the two sides are compared.
Players are assigned to be the 'winner' or 'loser' of a war - winners being the side with the highest number, losers being all other sides. If a Winner declared himself to be Taking over, he may make claims on the lands of the people he declared that he was attempting to take over. This applies for the Next turn only.

Keepin' it tidy

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2 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:58 am

Edit: See below



Last edited by Chinese R-3 on Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:31 pm; edited 3 times in total

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3 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:04 am

Edit: See below



Last edited by Chinese R-3 on Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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4 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:03 am

I don't feel like dividing the turn into "phases" is necessary.
In addition, we don't all live in Australia and can't all be on at midnight EST every night.
The only clarification necessary is taht all income occurs at the START of the turn, regardless of what time you post. Once it goes midnight, you are guaranteed your current income, as long as you post that turn. I don't see why it's so hard to wrap your head around income happening at the start of the turn, with upkeep deducted from income.

And about the map... could you please switch the capitals back to the old display? A black circle with an X, and the quadrants colored the color of the original owner? I just like it better that way. The black and white dots are boring.
And don't grey out inactives, that makes it impossible to tell who's who. Use the fill - stripes tool to stripe them.

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5 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:31 pm

hell no turns start too late and I have to work

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6 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:56 pm

kobo1d

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I am not sure if I think this is the right direction to go either. I guess I'm not sure the what the real misunderstanding is.

And having to post in a certain timeframe does really screw a lot of people. Even at my most available, my work schedule is all over the place, half the week I usually work in the hours around turn change.

I think perhaps people should be required to keep check of their own shit rather than have one person try and run it all. If anyone makes a mistake, someone will probably notice and help out, and if anyone intentionally cheats, we can ban them.

To tie a couple ideas together and perhaps solve the gold weirdness: What if when you attack someone, you have to declare and pay for any territories you plan to take. If you don't win, the gold comes back at the beginning of the next turn.

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7 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:04 pm

People aren't required to post between midnight and 1am.
The phase ruleset doesn't require any input at that time (and in fact ignores it). >.>
Regarding the territories you plan to take: Isn't that ... basically what I just outlined above? It should resolve in the same order, effectively.

Edit: No goddamn If-thens in turn resolving, Kob1ld! Though your plan is numerically equivalent to mine, it means the Game Masters have to keep track of yet another variable (gold escrow for territorial claims). I'd rather not.
kobo1d wrote:To tie a couple ideas together and perhaps solve the gold weirdness: What if when you attack someone, you have to declare and pay for any territories you plan to take. If you don't win, the gold comes back at the beginning of the next turn.



Last edited by Chinese R-3 on Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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8 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:06 pm

Proposed phases:

Main phase - 23 hours, 0:59am New york time to 23:59pm New york time
During this time, everyone makes their claims, rolls their dice, orders armies built, announces what they're doing, proposes transfers, accepts (or doesn't accept) transfers, and otherwise gives orders for their turn.
The Game Board does not change during this time.
Orders cannot be given preemptively for the any future turn.

Resolution phase - 1 hour, 23:59pm New york time to 0:59am New york time
During this time, the Game Master(s) process all orders the players have given. When this is complete, the Game Master(s) will post the updated map and spreadsheet, declare who won each war, and announce that the next turn is ready to be played.
All posts by all players are ignored during this time.

For the benefit of all players, the order in which things are resolved is the following:
Resoluion phase A: Grab War Territory
If, during the previous resolution phase, a player was on the winning side of a war, that player is eligible to purchase territories from all nations on the losing side of that war.
The cost to purchase a territory in this manner is equal to (1/4 of that player's current number of territories), rounded down. This cost is recalculated for every territory claimed; a territory, when claimed, increases the current number of territories of the player who claimed it. This happens after the claim to control that territory is processed, but before the next claim is processed.
That is, a player with 11 territories pays (11 / 4 rounded down) gold, or 2 gold, to claim a territory. If he does, and he has at least 2 gold in his treasury, then 2 gold is deducted from his treasury, the claimed territory's ownership is transferred to him, and his total number of territories increases to 12.
If that player then claims another territory that turn, the cost to claim it is (12 / 4 rounded down) gold, or 3 gold.
The Game Master(s) will go down the posts during the previous main phase - in descending order of time posted. For each valid war claim (i.e. player is eligible), they will subtract gold from a player's treasury, award that player ownership of the territory they claimed, increase the number of territories the claimant has by 1, and decrease the number of territories the previous owner of the claimed territory has by 1.
If a player's treasury would be reduced below 0 by this action, the claim is invalid; the territory does not change owners, gold is not deducted from that player's treasury, and the total number of territories for any players involved in the claim do not change.

If any player is reduced to 0 territories owned by these actions, that player has gone into exile; a d6 will be rolled for every army the exiled player owns, and the Game Master(s) then subtract 1 from that player's total number of armies for each 1, 2, 3, or 4 that was rolled.
A player may enter exile at most once per turn, and upon entering exile, cannot enter exile again until they purchase a territory. Players in exile generate 1 gold per turn, and do not lose gold to army upkeep.

Resolution phase B: Income
The Game Master(s) will add 1 gold to the treasury of each player, for every non-resource territory he or she controls.
The Game Master(s) will add 2 gold to the treasury of each player, for every Gold resource territory he or she controls.
The Game Master(s) will add 1 gold to the treasury of each player, if he controls the territory designated as his Capitol.
The Game Master(s) will add 1 Iron to a player's treasury for each Iron resource territory he controls.
The Game Master(s) will add 1 Rubber to a player's treasury for each Rubber resource territory he controls.
The Game Master(s) will add 1 Coal to a player's treasury for each Coal resource territory he controls.
The Game Master(s) will add 1 Oil to a player's treasury for each Oil resource territory he controls.
The Game Master(s) will add 1 Uranium to a player's treasury for each Uranium resource territory he controls.
If a player has access to any 'special' resources, the Game Master(s) add this resource to that player's treasury now.

Resolution Phase C: Transfers
For the sake of numerical simplicity, there is no surplus cost to transfer ownership of a Territory any more.
If a Transfer has been agreed to by all participants involved (I.e. one player has Proposed, and all other players involved have Accepted), then that transfer is resolved as such:
The Game Master(s) subtract gold or resources from the treasury of the player who is sending them.
The Game Master(s) add gold or resources from the treasury of the player who is receiving them.
The Game Master(s) subtract armies from the Total army number of the player who is sending them.
The Game Master(s) add armies to the Total army number of the player who is receiving them.
The Game Master(s) change the ownership of any territory whose ownership was to be changed as part of this transfer.
If a player's number of a specific resource, of a player's total gold, or of total armies would be reduced below 0 by a transfer, that transfer is entirely cancelled, and none of the items involved in it are moved or changed.
If a player offered to give ownership of a territory they did not have, the transfer is entirely cancelled, and none of the items involved in it are moved or changed.
Transfers which have been proposed, but NOT accepted, are not processed, and none of the items involved in the transfer take place.

Resolution phase D: Supply
The Game Master(s) subtract gold from a player's treasury equal to the total number of armies he has, unless that player is in exile.
If this reduces a player to below 0 gold, then the Game Master(s) add 1 gold to that player's treasury, and subtract 1 from that player's total number of armies, and repeat this process until the player is at 0 gold.
For every different resource that a player has at least one of in his treasury, the Game Master(s) grant a +0.1 bonus to the power of all armies that player is using, for this resolution phase only.
The Game Master(s) then set every player's number of every resource to 0. (Resources cannot be stockpiled)

Resolution phase E: Neutral Territory claim
There is no longer an increased cost to claim territory in war.
A player is eligible to loot any neutral territory that he is connected to via either the border of a territory he currently owns, or a waterway to a territory he currently owns. His borders are recalculated for every territory he claims - a player can 'chain' unclaimed territories.
The cost to purchase a territory in this manner is equal to (1/2 of that player's current number of territories), rounded down. This cost is recalculated for every territory claimed; a territory, when claimed, increases the current number of territories of the player who claimed it. This happens after the claim to control that territory is processed, but before the next claim is processed.
That is, a player with 7 territories pays (7 / 4 rounded down) gold, or 3 gold, to claim a territory. If he does, and he has at least 3 gold in his treasury, then 3 gold is deducted from his treasury, the claimed territory's ownership is transferred to him, and his total number of territories increases to 8.
If that player then claims another territory that turn, the cost to claim it is (8 / 4 rounded down) gold, or 4 gold.
The Game Master(s) will go down the posts during the previous main phase - in descending order of time posted. For each valid claim (i.e. player is eligible), they will subtract gold from a player's treasury, award that player ownership of the territory they claimed, and increase the number of territories the claimant has by 1.
If a player's treasury would be reduced below 0 by this action, the claim is invalid; the territory does not change owners, gold is not deducted from that player's treasury, and the total number of territories for the player involved in the claim does not change.

Resolution phase F: Resolving of war
If a player's Total number of armies is equal to 'x', then only the first 'x' dice rolls a player makes during a turn are considered valid for purposes of resolving war - that is, a player cannot declare more armies than he has.
For every war currently active on the globe, the following happens:
For every valid dice a player has dedicated to the conflict, the Game Master(s) multiply the value on that dice by that player's army power (1 for 0 resources, 1.1 for 1 resource, 1.2 for 2 resources, etc).
Then, for every side of every currently active war, Game Master(s) sum the values (after multiplication) of all dice on that side.
In every war, the side whose sum is highest is declared the winner, and all other sides involved are declared the loser(s).
The player(s) on the Winner side of a war are then eligible to make claims on any territory owned by the player(s) on the Loser side of that war, for the duration of the next Main phase, and the next Resolution phase.
That is, a player can make claims on territory belonging to players he has defeated on the turn after he defeated them, and this claim only persists for one turn.
If it is not declared what a player is attacking with his dice roll, the Game Master(s) decide for them - if there is nothing that the player would obviously attack or defend against, the Armies are declared to be performing training exercises, and the dice rolls are wasted.

A player in exile may use his armies to attack; if he participates in a successful attack, he is eligible to claim territories. Once a player in exile claims at least one territory, he is no longer in exile.
Also, since kob1ld has no friggin' idea how to round down, I'm going to specify here that 0/4, 1/4, 2/4, and 3/4 rounded down are all equal to 0, not 1. Smile

Resolution phase G: Armies are built
Players in Exile cannot build armies.
The Game Master(s) subtract 5 gold from the treasury of a player who declares he is building an army, and add 1 to the total number of armies that player possesses. If this reduces a player below 0 gold, then the Game Master(s) add 5 gold to that player's treasury, and subtract 1 army from that player's total number of armies (i.e., the army purchase is undone).
This is repeated for every army that player declared to build.



Benefits to this approach:
Less goddamn variables to track.
The Ownership flag of each territory, Each Player's total gold, Each Player's total armies, and a list of Wars (with victor displayed) are the only things to carry over between turns.
Hell, this gets rid of the "Has this player taken a turn yet" flag, which was the biggest pain in the arse for me generating turns in the first place.

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9 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:21 pm

Chinese R-3 wrote:
Game Master(s)
Game Master(s)
Game Master(s)
Game Master(s)
This is the problem.
There is no game master.

In addition, if this requires no input, why the hell does it take an hour?
You're making this far more complicated than it needs to be.

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10 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:23 pm

Aye. The lack of game masters is a huge problem when the rules are this interconnected.
The game's already that complex, Cherdenko. What would you suggest removing to make it less complicated?

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11 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:24 pm

Chinese R-3 wrote:Aye. The lack of game masters is a huge problem when the rules are this interconnected.
Not really. People should be able to handle it all by themselves.

The game's already that complex, Cherdenko. What would you suggest removing to make it less complicated?
Phases.

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12 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:25 pm

Lol, what?
Lack of phases is what's caused the confusion in the first place.
Suggest a more practical solution kthx. Smile

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13 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:26 pm

Premier Cherdenko wrote:Not really. People should be able to handle it all by themselves.
And when disputes arise, what do?
A split gamestate leads to a clusterfuck; you saw that already.

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14 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:31 pm

Chinese R-3 wrote:Lol, what?
Lack of phases is what's caused the confusion in the first place.
Suggest a more practical solution kthx. Smile
Everything happens at the same fucking time.
I've been saying this for days.

As soon as the clock rolls over from 23:59 to 00:00, everyone gains their income, minus their army support, minus any gold being payed to other people on a GPT basis. You don't gain income on days you don't post. If your GPT is less than your upkeep, any upkeep left over will be taken from your reserves. Any armies that still don't have their upkeep payed are disbanded.

Then you can buy armies, or buy territory. You can also attack. Attacking is done exactly as it is now. Roll 1 die per army.
After everyone who will be attacking attacks, winners spend gold to annex enemy territory at 1/2 normal colonization price.

This is pretty fucking simple, really. I think most of the confusion is from people who only skimmed the rules, because it was a giant wall of text. I propose putting less important rules (like revolution) in a spoiler box so they don't freak new people out.

And when disputes arise, what do?
A split gamestate leads to a clusterfuck; you saw that already.
The solution is to make sure that there's someone who knows what they're doing (myself, Honolulu, kobo1d, you) to fix the problem.
Stop treating this like a tabletop RPG.

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15 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:38 pm

Premier Cherdenko wrote:
Everything happens at the same fucking time.
I've been saying this for days.
It's a shame simultaneity is such a bitch, eh?

As soon as the clock rolls over from 23:59 to 00:00, everyone gains their income, minus their army support, minus any gold being payed to other people on a GPT basis. You don't gain income on days you don't post. If your GPT is less than your upkeep, any upkeep left over will be taken from your reserves.
I assume you mean "If you haven't posted in the 24 hours prior, income is not added", because Retcon (and any nonlinear time-lining) is anathema to an organised game.
I'll also assume that gold paid to others is deducted anyway.
What about army maintenence? Does that still happen?
Any armies that still don't have their upkeep payed are disbanded.
Phase 2. Also, what if after this, gold is still negative (as it can be with GPT arrangements above)?

Then you can buy armies, or buy territory. You can also attack. Attacking is done exactly as it is now. Roll 1 die per army.
After everyone who will be attacking attacks, winners spend gold to annex enemy territory at 1/2 normal colonization price.
That's bullshit for a PBEM and you know it; it necessitates players playing shortly before end-of-turn to claim their stuff, in addition to their earlier post in the day claiming their attack.

If players declare what their money is spent on during the attack, that'll lead to if-then comments, and tons of them. While that's not a problem in and of itself, having the players give if-then orders is just as complicating as having clearly defined rules.

Your suggestions are stupid.

Premier Cherdenko wrote:Stop treating this like a tabletop RPG.
No; it's a PBEM strategy game and it needs the same framework as one.

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16 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:43 pm

Premier Cherdenko wrote:The solution is to make sure that there's someone who knows what they're doing (myself)

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17 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:59 pm

Chinese R-3 wrote:
Premier Cherdenko wrote:The solution is to make sure that there's someone who knows what they're doing (myself)
I saw this and thought:
Chinese R-3 wrote:Hey guys I just addressed every single one of his points but it's been a few minutes and he hasn't responded back yet why isn't he on this forum F5'ing all day until I respond to him? oh well guess i'll just post an ad hominem
Surely you know better than that.

It's a shame simultaneity is such a bitch, eh?
What? How is that what I said?

I assume you mean "If you haven't posted in the 24 hours prior, income is not added", because Retcon (and any nonlinear time-lining) is anathema to an organised game.
Retcon
Who the fuck said anything about retcon? There's no game master. The only person responsible for tracking your gold is you. Stop pretending this is a PBEM.

I'll also assume that gold paid to others is deducted anyway.
I honestly cannot think of a good catch-all rule for this; it needs to be handled case-by-case, WHICH IS PERFECTLY FINE.

What about army maintenence? Does that still happen?
No.

Also, what if after this, gold is still negative (as it can be with GPT arrangements above)?
Gold cannot be negative. Ever.
I assume you're referring to out-going payments; upkeep is handled first. If you don't have enough gold to handle payments to other players afterwards, that payment and any deals associated with it are canceled. What happens after that is entirely up to the players; they are welcome to renegotiate any such deals.

That's bullshit for a PBEM and you know it; it necessitates players playing shortly before end-of-turn to claim their stuff, in addition to their earlier post in the day claiming their attack.
No, no it doesn't, actually.
It necessitates announcing which territories you'll be taking when you attack, exactly as we did in both prior games.

If players declare what their money is spent on during the attack, that'll lead to if-then comments, and tons of them. While that's not a problem in and of itself, having the players give if-then orders is just as complicating as having clearly defined rules.
What the hell are you talking about?

No; it's a PBEM strategy game and it needs the same framework as one.
PBEM stands for Play-By-Email, doesn't it?
We're not playing by email, this game doesn't give a turn to each player, and we don't have a game master.
This isn't a PBEM game and you know it.
Stop treating it like one.



Last edited by Premier Cherdenko on Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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18 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:02 pm

Chinese R-3 wrote:
Btw: Ruleset is not fine as it has issues dealing with income from captured territories.
No it doesn't.
You're just applying a PBEM mindset to a game that is not PBEM.

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19 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:11 pm

Premier Cherdenko wrote:Surely you know better than that.
You can say the same to yourself. Razz
Who the fuck said anything about retcon? There's no game master. The only person responsible for tracking your gold is you.
Rife for cheating.
Stop pretending this is a PBEM.
It's a turn based strategy game wherein the players have a day to make their moves, wherein all moves are handled by the rules framework, and the turn is generated. The only difference it has to a PBEM is that the moves are public before they're generated. Razz
I honestly cannot think of a good catch-all rule for this;
Then it's a good thing that I can.
I assume you're referring to out-going payments; upkeep is handled first. If you don't have enough gold to handle payments to other players afterwards, that payment and any deals associated with it are canceled.
Which means players do not know their own gold totals if they are being paid by others. And yet you expect them to keep track of it anyway.
It necessitates announcing which territories you'll be taking when you attack, exactly as we did in both prior games.
Which in turn necessitates if-then responses from players in case they don't win. Which is fine, but as said, gives more work for the Turn Generator.
What the hell are you talking about?
Nation Game 3 and why your rules are unsuitable for it.
We're not playing by email,
We're playing by forum. Is there a mechanical difference? Razz
this game doesn't give a turn to each player,
Yes it does.
and we don't have a game master.
And it either needs one, or it needs a sufficiently strict rules framework that the turn can be generated without one.
This isn't a PBEM game and you know it.
Stop treating it like one.
It is a PBEM game and I am treating it like one.

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20 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:17 pm

In all seriuosness Chinese R-3 if you dont like our rules tough luck, we're not going to change them for your needs. And if you dont like that then you can just leave.

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21 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:18 pm

The downside is that you don't have any rules to change, bro. They were never defined. Hence the discussion - being a definition and clarification of existing rules rather than a reworking of new ones.

Heck, I can probably add in the current "Territories costs double in wartime" rule if you want, but know that you already friggin' violated it with the territories you claimed during wartime, and thus overcounted both your gold and your number of armies. Razz



Last edited by Chinese R-3 on Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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22 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:19 pm

Chinese R-3 wrote:The downside is that you don't have any rules to change, bro. They were never defined. Hence the discussion.
Monty already said everything I have to say to you about this particular sub-topic.
So I'll just use an ad hominem.
Fuck you and your rules, you faggot.

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23 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:20 pm

Stop trolling, we have rules and we like them so leave if you dont like them, i hereby terminate this discussion

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24 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:20 pm

Premier Cherdenko wrote:Monty already said everything I have to say to you about this particular sub-topic.
So I'll just use an ad hominem.
Fuck you and your rules, you faggot.
And neither of your comments are relevant. Shall we each play by our own rules, then? Smile

And no, you don't have rules.
Your opinion on taking gold from conquered territory differs from Cherdenko's, which differs from kob1lds. Thus meaning there is no goddamn rule here.



Last edited by Chinese R-3 on Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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25 Re: Rules discussion; phases on Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:21 pm

Chinese R-3 wrote:
Premier Cherdenko wrote:Monty already said everything I have to say to you about this particular sub-topic.
So I'll just use an ad hominem.
Fuck you and your rules, you faggot.
And neither of your comments are relevant. Shall we each play by our own rules, then? Smile
I wonder if Honolulu gave the banhammer to kobo1d...

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